Legislature(2003 - 2004)
04/20/2004 08:03 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HJR 45-APPOINTMENT OF U.S. REPRESENTATIVES Number 1749 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced that the next order of business was HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 45, Requesting the United States Congress to propose an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to provide that a vacancy in the office of United States Representative may be filled by appointment until an election can be held. Number 1765 REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG, as a member of the House Judiciary Standing Committee, sponsor of HJR 45, presented the proposed resolution. He explained that [HJR 45] was an outgrowth of legislation regarding the interim election of U.S. Senators. He referred to [a multiple page handout entitled, "Legislative Research Report," included in the committee packet]. Page 35 of the report is about Relevant Constitutional Provisions, and [the first paragraph at the top of the second column] read as follows [original punctuation provided, with some change in formatting]: When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, that the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct. REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG stated that there is no similar language with respect to the [U.S.] House of Representatives, thus, there is no way that a vacancy in the U.S. House of Representatives can occur until a special election is held. This means that there are usually months that go by without the congressional district having any representation on the floor of the House. Representative Gruenberg noted that this happened in Alaska. He said the average time that elapses between the date of vacancy and the date of election is 96 days. Since 1977, there have been 105 vacancies in the House. He noted that these statistics are listed in Table 1, which is part of the report. He said U.S. Congress has never proposed a constitutional amendment to address this issue. Number 1882 REPRESENTATIVE HOLM asked if the reason for that might be because Alaska is probably the only state with only one U.S. House Representative. REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG recalled states that have only one U.S. House Representative: Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Delaware, and New Hampshire. Number 1937 REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to page 22 of the report [at the top of the right-hand column], which read as follows: "The democratic character of the House is also found in the fact that the people have elected every member of the House, while many Senators have been appointed." He stated that the people have a right to be represented. He said, "There have been a number of constitutional amendments proposed, but they're only if there are lots of vacancies in the House that those trigger, and that shouldn't be the case." REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG turned to page 2, lines 19-21 and said the language asks to have [copies of the resolution] sent to all members of the U.S. Congress, as well as to the presiding officers of all the state legislatures. He said he hopes the people involved in National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL) and Council of State Government Western Legislative Conference would "take this back," because he said he thinks it's quite important. Number 2061 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH [moved to adopt] Amendment 1 as follows: On page 1, line 13: Delete "a small state" Insert "some states" Number 2110 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH [moved to adopt] Amendment 2 as follows: On page 1, line 15: Delete "small" Insert "some" CHAIR WEYHRAUCH said, "Let me back up for the record. [Hearing] no objection, Amendment 1 is adopted." CHAIR WEYHRAUCH asked if there was any objection to Amendment 2. There being none, Amendment 2 was adopted. Number 2138 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH [moved to adopt] Amendment 3 as follows: On page 2, line 2: Between "for" and "states" Delete "small" Insert "those" Between "states" and ";and" Insert "with a small delegation in the U.S. House of Representatives CHAIR WEYHRAUCH asked if there was any objection to Amendment 3. There being none, Amendment 3 was adopted. Number 2169 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH [moved to adopt] Amendment 4 as follows: On page 2, line 5: Between "even in" and ";and" Delete "medium-sized and larger states" Insert "states with medium or large delegations in the U.S. House of Representatives" CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced that, there being no objection, Amendment 4 was adopted. Number 2209 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH [moved to adopt] Amendment 5 as follows: On page 2, line 15: Delete "congressional" Between "vacancies" and "are filled" Insert "in the U.S. House of Representatives" CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced that, there being no objection, Amendment 5 was adopted. Number 2227 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH [moved to adopt] Amendment 6 as follows: On page 2, line 16: Between "sent" and "to" Insert "electronically" Number 2265 REPRESENTATIVE LYNN noted that just using the phrase "shall be sent" does not state how it could be sent; therefore, it would not exclude any method. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced, "Without objection, Amendment [6] is adopted." REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked if Representative Lynn's comment was an objection to [Amendment 6]. REPRESENTATIVE LYNN answered, "Only for the sake of discussion." CHAIR WEYHRAUCH remarked, "I think what your intent here is to get it out there so they get it, whether it's electronically or whatever (indisc. - overlapping voices)." REPRESENTATIVE HOLM said he had heard from Congressman Don Young that paper mail has been slow due to the Anthrax scare and for other security reasons, whereas e-mail is fast. Number 2295 REPRESENTATIVE LYNN removed his objection. [Amendment 6 was treated as adopted.] Number 2300 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH [moved to adopt] Amendment 7 as follows: On page 2, line 21: Between "legislatures" and "of all other states." Insert "and to the executives" REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG suggested the word should be "governors", rather than "executives". CHAIR WEYHRAUCH concurred. He clarified that Amendment [7] would read: officers of all houses in the state legislatures and to the governors of all other states. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced that, [hearing] no objection, Amendment [7] was adopted. Number 2324 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said that the basic premise of [HJR 45] is that congressmen will be appointed, and he stated that he has a "basic disagreement with that notion." He said those in the U.S. House of Representatives have to be elected, and that's the body that's closest to the people. He stated that the people should make the selection, even in the event of a vacancy. TAPE 04-64, SIDE B Number 2330 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said, "To the extent that we are moving in the direction of allowing people to vote for their legislators, their senators, and their congressmen, this seemed to retreat from that direction." Number 2320 REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG noted that, initially, the U.S. Constitution was consistent for both U.S. House Representatives and U.S. Senators. He observed that, back in the days when the country was much smaller, state legislators could convene to address the issue of a vacant seat, so there was no need for an interim appointment in either body. He stated, "It wasn't until the Seventeenth Amendment was passed in 1912 - and they took the concept of elections by the state legislators and turned it into a popular election for U.S. Senators - that the issue arose." He speculated as follows: I think, probably, the theory was that, back in those days when the country was much smaller and the states were smaller, they could convene the state legislators to call a special session or deal with it at that point. And so, there was no question of any need for an interim appointment in either body. But once they looked at the issue again in 1912 and made the election of senators by popular vote, they felt that they then had to have a mechanism - or at least the state should be permitted to have a mechanism - for temporary appointments, because it takes a certain amount of time to have a special election. And they cured the problem with respect to the Senate, at that time; they didn't do it, with respect to the House. REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG indicated that he didn't know the reason for that, but he stated that the real question is whether it's good public policy to allow the state to make that decision. He clarified that the proposed legislation would not make it mandatory for a state to have a temporary appointment mechanism, but it would allow state legislatures to make that determination. He stated that the issue is representation. Number 2188 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ opined that the issue is regarding the difference between appointing and electing legislators. He stated, "And I don't think we should ever be in the business of appointing people when an election would suffice." He mentioned that there is currently proposed legislation that supports the move toward elections over appointments. He stated, "The majority of people in our caucus, Representative Gruenberg, believe that election is the preferred course." REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG responded, "That may be the case, and I added a provision to keep a temporary appointment in for the same reason. I may be a minority in my own caucus here, but I think I'm of the majority of the folks in the state." Number 2140 REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to adopt Amendment 8, which read as follows [original punctuation provided]: Page 2, line 6: Insert new language: WHEREAS having a method of quickly filling vacancies in the United States House of Representatives would be beneficial to the nation in the event of a large number of vacancies due to the occurrence of a disaster or terrorist attack; and CHAIR WEYHRAUCH objected. REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG noted that the U.S. Congress has been focusing recently on the issue of dealing with disaster or terrorist attack; however, the issue was not conceived of when the resolution was being drafted. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH suggested deleting "due to the occurrence of a disaster or terrorist attack". REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked what other reason might there be for a large number of vacancies. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH explained that he was raised under the philosophy that thinking makes it so. REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG responded that he doesn't think putting the language in the amendment will determine whether a terrorist attack will occur. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH said he thinks "we're going to stop that before it happens," and the committee knows that the purpose of the amendment is "in case something happens." He explained that he just didn't want to put the specific language in the amendment. Number 2075 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ directed attention to page 9 of the previously sited report. He continued as follows: There's mention of several proposal[s] in the House and in the Senate of the U.S. that talk about proposed solutions to the House vacancy problem. This resolution doesn't point to any one of them in particular, and that, to me, is a fatal flaw. If we're encouraging them to do something for the reasons that are specified here, it's got the same fate of any resolution that arrives on our desk. We appreciate the input, but unless there's something substantive or compelling about it, it's just going to be tossed. ... This is too general; it's not specific enough. And the resolutions that are mentioned there talk about the incapacity of substantial portions of Congress and the need to fill ... those vacancies for national emergency purposes. So, it's not the thrust of this resolution. REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG responded that obviously Congress has taken the position that Representative Berkowitz has, that there shouldn't be an interim appointment. He said it seems to him that most people in the country would not want there to be a vacancy in their delegation for any period of time. He said, "And maybe this is going to be a spark that ignites some people to start talking about this issue here in this country." Number 1989 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH withdrew his objection to Amendment 8. He asked if there was any further objection. There being none, Amendment 8 was adopted. Number 1962 REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to report HJR 45, [as amended], out of committee with individual recommendations [and the accompanying fiscal note]. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ objected. Number 1950 A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Gruenberg, Holm, Seaton, and Lynn voted in favor of HJR 45, as amended. Representatives Coghill, Berkowitz, and Weyhrauch voted against it. Therefore, CSHJR 45(STA) was reported out of the House State Affairs Standing Committee by a vote of 4-3.
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